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Post by starbuck on Mar 11, 2011 1:21:01 GMT -5
i have always loved the kinks but must confess to only having about half their albums and none of the solo material, however much there is of it.
the question that has been bouncing around my little brain the last week is this: not knowing nearly as much about kinkdom as y'all, is it generally accepted that ray's songwriting peaked during the glory years and tailed off at a certain point? i was never a fan of think visual, one of the only later albums i have ever owned. are the 80s/90s albums more along the lines of "dirty work", or are they as good as the muswell era kinks?
also, i remember seeing ray on letterman or leno when he released one of his solo records (i believe it was other people's lives)...is this stuff generally considered to be worth the price of admission, or is it, as keith famously commented, "dogsh*t in the dorway"?
TIA! i'll hang up and take my answer off the air.
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Post by complicatedlife on Mar 11, 2011 9:00:40 GMT -5
Great to see you in Kinkdom again Mr. Starbuck! It's interesting that both the Kinks and the Rolling Stones have a similar period that is considered their Golden Age. For the Kinks, it's the period between Face-To-Face and Muswell Hillbillies, while the Stones probably would be Aftermath through Exile On Main Street. From my personal POV, these periods basically match my 6th-12th grade years or what i call my Rock and Roll formative years (The Stones were my fave band until a winter day in 1970 when I first heard an entire Kinks LP which was Arthur). I still enjoy the 'latter day' Kinks. The stage show era (the Preservation Saga, Soap Opera and Schoolboys LPs) were a treat to see performed live and especially in the case of Soap Opera, famliarity of the stage show made the LP make much more sense. These albums didn't receive the critical acclaim as the golden age LPs, but there is still a heckuva lot of great music. Likewise for the pre-arena (Sleepwalker and Misfits) - Ray's has a creative rebirth with great longs like Full Moon, Stormy Sky, Misfits, Rock and Roll Fantasy and my fave tongue-in-cheek song, Permanent Waves. Strangely enough, many Kultists discount their arena years (Low Budget - Word of Mouth), but Ray's output still of the highest calibre (and Dave contributes the stunning "Living On a Thin Line"). Their final Studio LPs have their moments but they were victims of uninterested record labels (MCA and Columbia). I would consider UK Jive their weakest LP. I would also recommend both Ray and Dave's solo material - especially Ray's Other People's Lives and Workingman's Cafe. If possible, try to get hold of Dave's "Rock Bottom - Live at the Bottom Line" - it's my fave live recording.
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Post by HollyH on Mar 11, 2011 11:23:23 GMT -5
Yeah, what he said... Well, you have to admit, the Kinks never sank as low as Tattoo You. But I think throughout the late 70s and 80s, both bands suffered from the same compulsion to be "current" -- both Ray and Mick were chasing trends too much. The difference is that Ray's always been a musical sponge, and therefore he was more successful at imitating/parodying other musical styles. (Listen to his pitch-perfect punk sound on "Pressure" or "Sold Me Out," or his New Wave turns on "Add It Up" or "Aggravation.") All the same, there are several cuts on all those post-Misfits albums that are still fantastic, and couldn't have been done by anybody but the Kinks. You just have to do a little prospecting, IMHO. Now, as for the solo work -- I agree about Rock Bottom Live, it's a fantastic live album. I'm not as much of a fan of Dave's other solo work, to be honest. He just doesn't have the songwriting chops that his brother does -- I'm a lyrics person, and Dave's lyrics are never as strong as Ray's. But I highly recommend Ray's two solo albums. Other People's Lives is a great mix of satire and searingly honest songs about mid-life setbacks and human frailty. Working Man's Cafe goes a little heavier on the satire, but the sound is crisper and more tuneful. Some fans thought OPL was a little "swampy," which it is -- depends on whether you like that sound (I most definitely do).
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donl
Session Man
Posts: 299
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Post by donl on Mar 11, 2011 12:30:31 GMT -5
i think the last great kinks album was state of confusion. i think the albums after this weren't all that good, too 80's era metal sounding for my taste. think visual and phobia for me are largely unlistenable, word of mouth and uk jive are only slightly better.
rays solo work is much better(apart from the fact that 2 of the 4 albums are remade kinks classics). i think ray regained the touch that (imho) he lost in the latter stage kinks recordings. i also think that opl and wmc are miles better than the releases of his peers from back in the day.
I'm with you holly regarding dave's solo work, there are a number of good songs on each but overall a bit disappointing (imho). The bottom line album is one of the best live albums out there, the bottom line shows were great. dave was playing solo the stuff that the kinks should play if there ever is a reunion tour.
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Post by uncleson on Mar 11, 2011 14:05:18 GMT -5
Starbuck, I would like to add Daves' solo album BUG to your list. It is quite good, and quite interesting!
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Post by starbuck on Mar 11, 2011 14:12:49 GMT -5
CL...i think there is more to it than we all realize in the 65-72 period for popular music. there were so many great bands putting out timeless music that it has to be more than just coincidence. the status of the music industry? record companies awarding contracts to people who were actually creative as opposed to those who could sell the most records? was it the drugs they all were taking? was something in the water?
holly, please tell me you accidentally typed in "tatoo you" instead of "dirty work"...."tatoo you" is an amazing album and loved by most, if not all, stones fans. it is a fine album from front to back. "dirty work" on the other hand is generally considered to be their nadir...what with charlie and keith battling the smack and mick and keith battling in the studio, it is not fondly remembered.
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Post by HollyH on Mar 11, 2011 23:46:00 GMT -5
I am proud to say I never listened to Dirty Work. Tattoo You was the last Stones album I ever bought. I was so disappointed by it, I completely stopped listening to new Stones music. But then, after Low Budget I lost interest in the Kinks for a while too. I suppose it has more to do with where my head was at in the early 80s than anything else.
As for what made the the 1965-72 period so incredible...I think all those bands were so competitive with one another, every time one band made a great album, the others all raised their game. Lennon and McCartney were insanely competitive, as was Ray. Bob Dylan couldn't stand it when people told him Donovan was better than he was. Brian Wilson listened obsessively to what others were doing. Pete Townshend was so competitive, he never stopped to worry whether he had any actual musical talent.
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Post by sleepwalker24 on Mar 12, 2011 4:55:38 GMT -5
I am proud to say I never listened to Dirty Work. Tattoo You was the last Stones album I ever bought. I was so disappointed by it, I completely stopped listening to new Stones music. But then, after Low Budget I lost interest in the Kinks for a while too. I suppose it has more to do with where my head was at in the early 80s than anything else. As for what made the the 1965-72 period so incredible...I think all those bands were so competitive with one another, every time one band made a great album, the others all raised their game. Lennon and McCartney were insanely competitive, as was Ray. Bob Dylan couldn't stand it when people told him Donovan was better than he was. Brian Wilson listened obsessively to what others were doing. Pete Townshend was so competitive, he never stopped to worry whether he had any actual musical talent. I think your right about a lot of these bands being in competition Holly. I believe Brian Wilson wrote the Pet Sounds album after hearing the Beatles, Rubber Soul. I believe he thought 'Now how can we top that?' As for the the title of this thread, I personally prefer the period between Face To Face and Muswell Hillbillies, but in all honesty I've never heard anything that I don't like by The Kinks, I just prefer some albums to others. There are lots of great albums after Muswell Hillbillies - Soap Opera, Sleepwalker and Misfits are all fantastic albums in my opinion, I love State Of Confusion and Word Of Mouth too. In general I prefer Ray's solo work to Dave's, but I have to be honest and admit that there are still a couple of Dave's solo albums that I don't have.
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Post by Kinkcan on Mar 12, 2011 9:51:43 GMT -5
Old Kinks .... because there's times when I'm in the mood for that stuff. New Kinks ... because there's times when I'm in the mood for that stuff. Ray ........... because there's times when I'm in the mood for that stuff.
;D
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gary
Dreamer
Quiz Master
Posts: 995
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Post by gary on Mar 13, 2011 22:02:04 GMT -5
Well put, Kinkcan.
Like Holly, I parted ways with the Kinks back in the ’70s, in my case after Schoolboys. I loved that album, but what came after sounded like a sell-out. I agreed with the rock writer John Mendelsohn that the lyrics, once sharp and detailed, had become obvious and strident. I had no good sense of the band’s early years, since I knew only the chopped-up U.S. albums, and no good sense of where the non-album singles fit in, since I knew them out of context from the Kronikles collection.
Then one day, I stumbled on Holly’s blog and her Kinks-album-a-day project. As I followed her progress, I regretted that I’d never picked up the Velvel CDs with the bonus tracks. I started hunting them down, and it didn’t take long for Kinks fever to take hold again.
I now have all the original albums on CDs and a better sense of the band’s evolution and how one album led to the next. Thomas Kitts’s book Ray Davies: Not Like Everybody Else helped with this (despite its flaws). It’s all good -- one big continuum. Where I once saw a decline in the later years, I now see a change of approach instead. I have a better appreciation for Ray as a canny survivor – he has considerable gifts and knows how to make them work for him over the long haul. It’s fun to fit the solo albums into the chronology as I acquire them, and I hope to be able someday to add the projects I learned about from Kitts: 80 Days, The Flatlands, etc. Ray and Dave’s books and, of course, the videos, are part of the continuum too.
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Post by Smiley on Mar 13, 2011 22:53:35 GMT -5
Yeah, what he said... Well, you have to admit, the Kinks never sank as low as Tattoo You. But I think throughout the late 70s and 80s, both bands suffered from the same compulsion to be "current" -- both Ray and Mick were chasing trends too much. The difference is that Ray's always been a musical sponge, and therefore he was more successful at imitating/parodying other musical styles. (Listen to his pitch-perfect punk sound on "Pressure" or "Sold Me Out," or his New Wave turns on "Add It Up" or "Aggravation.") All the same, there are several cuts on all those post-Misfits albums that are still fantastic, and couldn't have been done by anybody but the Kinks. You just have to do a little prospecting, IMHO. Now, as for the solo work -- I agree about Rock Bottom Live, it's a fantastic live album. I'm not as much of a fan of Dave's other solo work, to be honest. He just doesn't have the songwriting chops that his brother does -- I'm a lyrics person, and Dave's lyrics are never as strong as Ray's. But I highly recommend Ray's two solo albums. Other People's Lives is a great mix of satire and searingly honest songs about mid-life setbacks and human frailty. Working Man's Cafe goes a little heavier on the satire, but the sound is crisper and more tuneful. Some fans thought OPL was a little "swampy," which it is -- depends on whether you like that sound (I most definitely do). Yea... what they BOTH said! May I chime in... Donuts in the doorway? Well, KEEEF... not for either of Ray's, but maybe yours!! I also highly recommend Dave's BUG! My husband's Stones collection ended at Goat's Head Soup. I lasted until Tattoo You. I bought Steel Wheels, played it once and there it sits. Tragedy. I don't want to elaborate on latter day KinKs LPs, it's all been said. But, I will reiterate, that I still LOVE Phobia, albite 2 songs, back to front!
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Post by luis on Mar 25, 2011 17:33:06 GMT -5
For me:
Tattoo You is Stones last great album. After that all is downhill. Smileys experience with Steel Wheels is similar in my case with everything they recorded since Dirty Work till Bigger Bang which is a very elaborate piece of nothing. I used to be a gigantic Keith fan, but as the years has passed this has waned very much. I recently read his biography and ended of fed up with his self glorification, but I love both of his solo albums.
Everything the Kinks did from Face to Face to Soap Opera is a masterpiece. Misfits a work of Art. I dislike the heavy metal excesses in Give the people... but love everything else in the album. I love State of confusion. After this the albums get a bit weaker. I have listened to UK Jive very few times. As someone said once in this forum, Ray goes through the motions, but there seems to be no soul. I don't feel the band at all. Phobia is a large collection of fantastic numbers, and perfectly avoidable ones.
For me one of the big differences between Kinks and Stones is that the Kinks had the dignity to let it go when they knew that it didn't work anymore, while the Stones preferred to keep on cashing in on their legend even if it meant treading on it.
L
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Post by uncleson on Mar 25, 2011 18:52:58 GMT -5
I felt Tattoo You was ok, as was Dirty Work. But the last good Stones album was Emotional Rescue. Keiths solo music was good.
But Ray and Daves solo work is better than that.
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Post by HollyH on Apr 1, 2011 0:21:38 GMT -5
The comparison with the Stones is apt. I love the best of the Rolling Stones, but some of those later albums show absolutely no growth. One thing I've always loved about the Kinks is their chameleon quality, that multi-faceted talent that allows them to jump genres.
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Post by Kinkcan on Apr 1, 2011 8:19:36 GMT -5
One thing I've always loved about the Kinks is their chameleon quality, that multi-faceted talent that allows them to jump genres. The Beatles were also very good at that. But I can't think of another band that was as good as the Kinks in this matter.
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